Weeks 4-6
Please use the comments section to answer questions. Do not try to answer all questions. Try to keep up an average of one per week, with time for a few comments on the ideas of others.
2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
3.Hahn's essay (see critical reader)on The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelleidentifies the motif of the loathly lady, but arguesit has a different purpose than asserting the feminine. What does he think the function of the story is?
4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
5. Discuss what you think is the most striking or outrageous example.
6. What does Revard (1997) suggest about the relationship between language, sex, power and transgression in the English Renaissance?
1. Cite some variations in the Loathly Lady fabula across the three tales in your Reader. Focus on the conditions by which the lady is either beautiful or ugly, and the actions of the knight/king/"hero"...
ReplyDeleteFor the lady to be judged either beautiful or ugly, the variations cited in the Slide 5, the Theme of the Loathly Lady (slide 5) –
• “The goddess sovereignty first appears as a hideous hag who wants to marry (or sleep with) the king.”
• “He is usually unwilling at first, but if he obliges her, she transforms into a beautiful woman.”
And in “the loathly lady p.4” (slide 17) –
“He saw no creature that bore life,
--Save on the green he saw sitting a woman –
There can no man imagine an uglier creature.
And in “the price, p.6” (slide 20) –
“….For though I am ugly, and old, and poor
I would not for all the metal, nor for ore
That under earth is buried or lies above,
Have anything except that I were thy wife, and also thy love.”
…..
“So woeful was he, his wife looked so ugly.”
And in “Gawain’s choice, p.9” (slide 22)
“To have me ugly and old until I die,”
The actions of the knight/king/hero as revealed in (slide 4)
--the king has to face the test “before he can claim the sovereignty of the land.”
And in (The Adventures of the Sons of Eochaid Mumedon) (slide 6)
--Nial (the only hero of the three) “is the only one game enough and, kissing her, she transforms into the most beautiful of women.”
And in “the price, p.20) –
--“There was nothing but heaviness and much sorrow,
For he wedded her in private in the morning,
And all day after hid himself like an owl,”
And in “Gawain’s choice, p.9” (slide 22)
--This knight deliberates and painfully sighs,
But at the last he said in this manner:
“My lady and my love, and wife so dear,
I put me in your wise governance;
Choose yourself which may be most pleasure
And most honor to you and me also.
I do not care which of the two,
For as it pleases you, is enough for me.”
….
“Yes, certainly, wife,” he said, “I consider it best.”
And in “His reward, p.9” (slide 23)
--“That she so was beautiful, and so young moreover,
For joy he clasped her in his two arms,
….
A thousand in a row he did her kiss,”
A very good answer, Joe! Well researched and put together!
Delete2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
ReplyDeleteThe definition of a feminist, according to Oxford English Dictionary, is defined as someone is “having or based on the belief that women should have the same rights and opportunities as men”. I totally agree with this that she is. She presents herself to her friends, male or female, in her behaviour almost identical to her male counterpart.
As in slide 10, “This and the implicit coda of the tale that follows has led some critics to see it a kind of ‘proto-feminist’ work, in that is apparently promotes the subjugation of men to their wives rather than vice versa, as was the status quo at the time.”
And in slide 19, she showed her authority to others as their equal:
“…..
Before your court departs, do me justice.
I taught this answer to the knight;
For which he pledged me his words there.
The first thing that I would ask of him
He would do, if it lay in his power.”
…..
Said she, “that thou take me as thy wife,
For well thou know that I have saved thy life.”
And in slide 22, more evidence is shown as such:
“Then have I gotten the mastery of you,” she said,
“Since I may choose and govern as I please?”
Hi Joe. You mean he, Chaucer? So was he sympathetic to women or not?
ReplyDeleteAs in slide 9 & 10, for a medieval text, his comments and insights on women in the period were quite modern. He should be said, in my opinion, a 'pro to-feminist' but not pro female emancipation (slide 10.
DeleteQuestion Four: In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define conceits?
ReplyDeleteIn the Elizabethan poetry, one of the main features used to explore the stories was conceits. These were more of an intellectual and intricate device associated with metaphysical poets during the 17th century (Britannica Encyclopedia).
The purpose of conceits was to create surprises and unlikely comparisons which would make sense to the reader but showcase the poet. These were showcased through metaphors, personification and similes.
In Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets there are two forms of conceits that are shown. The first of which is ‘Petrarchan conceit’ (Poetry foundation) which is used in many sonnets to create sensual imagery to show love. An example of some of Shakespeare’s work which showcased these were, “shall i compare thee to a summer’s day?”. This described how beautiful his lady was (Sonnet XVIII, line 1).
The other form of conceit was metaphysical conceits which differed from the Petrarchan conceit because it showed more of a startling and witty side with unlikely events to hold the reader’s attention.
Originally this style of using conceits in poetry was heavily criticised for changing the typical similar Elizabethan poetry and adding surprises. These conceits were used in poetry to show challenge your imagery and create new ideas however it still contained some of the same philosophical messages.
Conceits would often be rather humorous which entertained and captured the reader’s attention also.
References:
Analysis of Shakespeare's Sonnet 18 - Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Day. (n.d.).
Metaphysical conceit. (n.d). Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/art/metaphysical-conceit
Poetry Foundation. (n.d). Retrieved from http://www.poetryfoundation.org/learning/glossary-term/conceit
Conceits could contain ideas of petrarchan fanciful imaginations and metaphorically sensual imagery to show the author's love, like, "I love to hear her speak, yet well I know, That music hath far more pleasing sound; I grant I never saw a goddess go, My mistress, when she walks, and tread the ground."
DeleteReference:
DeleteSonnet CXXX, lines 9 - 12.
Good, solid answer Jodeci.Are there any technical differences between the Shakespearean and Jacobean sonnets?
DeleteShakespearean sonnets were written during the Jacobean era (1603-1625) and cover themes such as the passage of time, love, beauty and mortality. There are 14 lines in a Shakespearean sonnet which has a rhyme scheme of the three quatrains of the first 12 lines as abab cdcd efef, contrary to that of the couplets, the final 2 lines, the rhyme scheme is gg. Sonnet 116 would be the example to illustrate this form.
DeleteThe Jacobean (or Petrarchan) sonnets in the years between 1603 and 1636, adopted the standard rhyming scheme abba abba for the octave, followed by either cde, cde or cdc, cdc rhymes in the sestet, characterized by sportiveness, satirical and epigrammatic touches, and abrupt feverarsals of mood.
Reference:
Mabillard, Amanda. Shakespearean Sonnet Basics: Iambic Pentameter and the English Sonnet Style. Shakespeare Online. 30 Aug. 2000. < http://www.shakespeare-online.com/sonnets/sonnetstyle.html >.
Sonnet (n.d.) < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonnet#English_.28Shakespearean.29_sonnet >
Great research Joe. Well done.
DeleteThank you! But not good enough to worth your praise.
DeleteIn “A Valediction: Forbidden Mourning” of John Donne, a comparison is “made to concede likeness while being strongly conscious of unlikeness”, examplifying metaphysical conceits that show no clear cut relationship between things being compared. In the sonnet, the lover couple’s absence from each other is likened to “a compass”.
DeleteIf they be two, they are two so
As stiff twin compasses are two;
Thy soul, the fixed foot, makes no show
To move, but doth, if the other do.
2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
ReplyDeleteWhen reading Chaucer’s wife of Bath, I personally feel and see how empowered women are. I get a sense of Authority and Sovereignty which is the main theme of this tale. An example of how women are more dominant would be when Bath is in his trial. His life is in the hands of Queen Guinevere wife of King Arthur. Being one of Arthur’s knights I thought that he would have faced the king and a court of men as well as a few citizens of the kingdom, but instead the rails were handed over to the females. The theme is a great reminder of how women are more powerful than what society may seek them out to be. He goes out and seeks what women truly desire which is sovereignty over their husbands. It’s interesting because throughout the tale it’s the women who are most sovereign for example when Bath isn’t prosecuted but is pushed around.
It is in moments like this I believed Chaucer is showing his Feminist side because of the amount of order the women have control over. Though a maiden is raped in the beginning of the tale the story continues to reveal how in control woman really are. Set in the time of King Arthurs rule I would expect that it was hard for a female to be more dominant and high in authority. This proven wrong especially when Bath is at the mercy of Queen Guinevere and her womanly court for e.g.
902-906 pg3:
“Thou standest yet,” she said, “in such condition,
That of thy life yet thou hast no assurance
I grant thee life, if thou canst tell me
What thing it is that women most desire.
Beware, and keep thy neck-bone from iron.”
In a way I kind of feel like Chaucer was sympathetic because in his writing it was like he was giving them praise. Women want many things but most of all it’s sovereignty over their husbands as quoted from the text.
1037-1042 pg5:
“My Liege lady, without exception.” He said,
“women desire to have sovereignty
As well over her husband as her love,
And to be in mastery over him.
This is your greatest desire, though you kill me.
Do as you please; I am here subject to you will.”
I like the juxtaposition between the image of how men were portrayed as well as the woman. Reading Wife of Bath it’s like to roles are switched where the men are at the mercy of the women and the women are the ones making the rules. I found it really surprising how modernised the themes and messages are based on women which weren’t so common around that time. The Loathly lady is a great example of confidence and strength which is what feminist believe what a woman who she is. The lady accepts who she is and knows that there is more to beauty than what meets the eye. You wouldn’t hear much tales about women in a way so empowering or high and mighty, which is why I think Chaucer’s spin on the Tale resonates with a lot of women in this generation and will continue to do so for future generations to come.
2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
ReplyDeleteAfter repetitive reading of Chaucer's 'The Wife of Bath's Tale,' I felt like Chaucer's favour lay with the feminists. It wasn't until I tried to argue that Chaucer was a feminist that I started to believe that Chaucer wasn't a feminist and that this text was made to reveal women to be weak and vulnerable. Intriguingly, male dominance is present in the very first line of the text where it states, "In the old days of King Arthur." This shows that a man was in charge and his name is referenced to for the time period he lived. In line 888 is the second assertion of male dominance as it quotes, "By utter force, he took away her maidenhead." There is no writing of the woman putting up a fight, but by utter force, her maidenhead was stolen from her by a strong knight. What occurs afterward is what makes woman appear to be weak and vulnerable when it is said in line 891-892 "That this knight was condemned to be dead,
By course of law, and should have lost his head." However, in line 904 the woman in charge of council speaks, "I grant thee life." From this event, I believe Chaucer made for the woman to look so weak. When I watch T.V series like Game of Thrones, when men are deemed to condemn other men to death, they follow through with the law. By granting the Knight his life after he had abused a woman portrays the woman was not only weak but silly as she cowardly betrayed the rights of her own race. If say, she would've followed through with the law that he loses his head after his heinous crime, this would have made a bold statement that woman do not play when it comes to these acts. So in my opinion, Chaucer subliminally makes woman look weak and vulnerable and therefore isn't a feminist.